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B-80 excessive sinking in the front


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B-80's rear wheels are 15.5R38 - Ф-2А
They are: 394 mm wide
While in-game they're only: 355 mm wide
(LINK)

I've added the b80_rear_wheel.xml in the post above with the others, if anyone wants to try it out.

I just took it through the swamp path on Psix's proving (go to the "болото" locator and follow the path down with the water).  Towed the agricultural trailer with short logs like a champ!  At first I also wasn't interested in this tractor at all, but now that I've tried it, it's actually really interesting to drive.  @Trackrod_ST You should give it a chance! Remember that trick that you showed us (LINK) ? Well that works beautifully with B-80! I was stuck on this tiny muddy incline and I put the shifter stick on 0.5 and just right-clicked - click, wait, click, wait - and everyime I gave it throttle it inched forward a bit and managed to get out of the mud and climb over the slope!  It's an interesting tractor with it's own peculiarities!   It's lifting arm thingy however sometimes gets stuck in the mud....is that only as high as it goes? Shouldn't it be possible to lift it higher? Like the ЮМЗ-6А and K-700?

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2 hours ago, Truckwolf said:

B-80's rear wheels are 15.5R38 - Ф-2А
They are: 394 mm wide
While in-game they're only: 355 mm wide
(LINK)

I've added the b80_rear_wheel.xml in the post above with the others, if anyone wants to try it out.

I just took it through the swamp path on Psix's proving (go to the "болото" locator and follow the path down with the water).  Towed the agricultural trailer with short logs like a champ!  At first I also wasn't interested in this tractor at all, but now that I've tried it, it's actually really interesting to drive.  @Trackrod_ST You should give it a chance! Remember that trick that you showed us (LINK) ? Well that works beautifully with B-80! I was stuck on this tiny muddy incline and I put the shifter stick on 0.5 and just right clicked - click, wait, click, wait - and everyime I gave it throttle it inched forward a bit and managed to get out of the mud and climb over the slope!  It's an interesting tractor with it's own peculiarities!   It's lifting arm thingy however sometimes gets stuck in the mud....is that only as high as it goesr? Shouldn't it be possible to lift it higher? Like the ЮМЗ-6А and K-700?

the lifting thingy is a log bale grab and it would go high, (does it actually work). It would also need a counterweight on the rear, usually a concrete block on the lifting arms, (2 ton max), or it will fall on its face.

These tracktors also have the ability to load water into the rear tyres for added traction.

..

Edited by Trackrod_ST
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3 hours ago, Truckwolf said:

B-80's rear wheels are 15.5R38 - Ф-2А
They are: 394 mm wide
While in-game they're only: 355 mm wide

Coincidentally I also increased the width on the rear tires, not because of any real-life specs I looked up (I didn't) but because I noticed the tire tracks were too narrow with the original width.

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I zeroed in the COM!  However I'm reluctant to update the xml files that I've uploaded.  The actual COM is -"0.3086", however that value kinda brings us back to square one. At that value the tractor won't sink when spawned...but as soon as you install the grabber (1300 kg) it sinks again. I think that this tractor's main use will be around the logs kiosk loading logs onto to trucks.  Can you imagine maneuvering this thing around, stopping to open the functions menu, stopping to operate the grabber....and everytime you stop you sink in the ground?  And this thing is difficult to dig out. And it takes sinking once to punch a hole in the height map. Soon enough the area around the kiosk will be full of craters. 
No, thanks!

Here's the actual proper COM X offset 
(a thousand apologies for all the previous blunderings. Mistakes were made. It's been a learning experience for sure....he heh....ooph...  😅)

X Coordinates:

Front axle: 1.472  (HardpointX)
Rear axle: -1.153  (HardpointX)
Wheelbase:  2.625 cm

Distance from front axle to COM: 1.7755 cm
Distance from rear axle to COM: 0.8495 cm

Front axle to COM offset: 1.472 - 1.7755 = -0.3035
Rear axle to COM offset: -1.153 + 0.8495 = -0.3035

X COM zeroed in at x offset: “-0.3035”

So, I think I'll just leave mine at "-0.4" for now.  Players now have enough info to tweak it further as they see fit.

If you move the COM forwards and put more weight on the front axle - the front wheels will sink in the mud.
If you move the COM backwards and decrease the weight on the front axle - the front wheels will start losing grip and the tractor will become difficult to steer. If you attach a trailer that puts weight on the lifting arm on the back, the front wheels may even lift off the ground on inclines.

One last thing: The rear lifting arm buries itself in the mud in certain situations. The lifting arm itself doesn't have collisions. But the trailer's handle does. I've found myself in a situation where the wheels on the tractor would spin, but I couldn't move forward at all. That was because the arm drove the trailer's handle into the ground and it got stuck.
I've increased mine to -8 degrees - this is the last possible height before clipping starts to occur (at the back of the tractor and the trailer handle clips through the hitch)

<Constraint
	AxisLocal="(0;0;1)"
	MinLimit="-8"
	MaxLimit="10"


I'll leave it for now. I'd rather study it's front axle now, forward kinematics and so on.

Edited by Truckwolf
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@Truckwolf

What happens if you add half ton water ballast to the rear axle? This will increase traction with no effect on front axle.

Nose heavy trailers dont go on the lifting arms. They have a separate hook frame closer to the axle.

Is it possible to add manual diff lock?

 

..

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6 hours ago, Trackrod_ST said:

Is it possible to add manual diff lock?

In the game?  Of course.  Just change the difflock type in the xml from Always to Default.

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Greetings, fellas! 🙂  I did some more tweaks, hopefully final.

First off, I managed to stop front wheels sinking with the front loader.  I decreased it's weight from "1300" to "500".   The loader is called ПКУ-0.8 (КУН-10) and is made by «САЛЬСКСЕЛЬМАШ».   Here's the manual -> (LINK)   It consists of two parts - the loader and the end bit.  The loader itself has a construction weight of 407 kg and operating weight of 550 kg.  There are different end bits, but range between 150 to 300 kg.  There's a special bit for grabbing logs, but it doesn't quite look like ours. Our thingy looks more like a forklift bit.
Anyway, we're looking at 800kg front loader at most. But ours doesn't have all the parts, there's ballast, there's some sort of radiator cover and so on.
I'm mentioning this in oder to justify the weight reduction.  1300 kg is the operating weight of both front and rear loaders installed at the same time.  It's just too much for our sinking wheels.
I'll upload the xml in my previous post with the others and clean it up.  Give it a shot, see if it rattles or shakes. I gave it a good run around proving, going over bumps and ruts. I don't see a reason to start adding damping and friction.
And it doesn't sink, look!

This is what happens with the default 1300 kg front loader:
I tried so hard, and got so far...but in the end...it doesn't even maaatter...
b80_sunk.thumb.png.2e31d86ecf2cce63c45e6e0ea1b384b4.png

And now with 500kg front loader:

b-80_nosink.thumb.png.8813c73e279df8f20c5449de1e9a23f3.png

It can even go over mud with 4 short logs in it's grabber without sinking! Now that's a handy tractor, not some sort of crater punching machine!

b80_front_loader.thumb.png.d82e8a2a788f409677004ff058bebdd1.png

 

Okay, one more picture. This one shows a little problem with the front loader. This is not my doing. The default one, with it's default weight does the same. Install the grabber and just pick up some speed. And you'll see this:
b80_pku_glitch.thumb.png.e387afb091775ebb85fcc76b36938bef.png
 

I don't know how to fix this.  Does anyone know what ForceBodyParams do? 
 

On 11/10/2020 at 1:51 PM, Trackrod_ST said:

What happens if you add half ton water ballast to the rear axle? This will increase traction with no effect on front axle.

Hello! Ummm, well, the difference is hardly noticable. It does feel like it has a tiny bit of more traction.   Right now we have no idea what effect superheavy wheels have on TWOW (totall weight on wheel - the value that the game calculates to determine how much a vehicle sinks).  I'll keep it in mind for personal tweaking. I have seen that video by Sergey Savelkin where he let out 3 tons of water from K-700's wheels - it looked like a fountain! 😀 While I was browsing through MTZ's manuals, I found that one of them can load oil into it's wheels - like...engine oil?
 

On 11/10/2020 at 1:51 PM, Trackrod_ST said:

Nose heavy trailers dont go on the lifting arms. They have a separate hook frame closer to the axle.

Like so?  This is UMZ-6a. It has a hitch there. Why doesn't B-80 have anything there? What is that for? (the thing I've circled in red)
433207526_b-80andUMZr.thumb.png.a6d4dcae48ab07def9ea0d39a362a41f.png
 

On 11/10/2020 at 1:51 PM, Trackrod_ST said:

Is it possible to add manual diff lock?

Yep, what Unster said. Open the b80's xml file, scroll down until you find <Truckdata . There' you'll find DifflockType="always". You can change it to "Default" or delete the whole line to get the normal difflock that can only be locked on first gear.  The only other possible option is "None" (it's case sensitive) - to disable the difflock completely.

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@Trackrod_ST I see. So whoever made UMZ-6a has taken some liberties by placing a hitch there?

I did one more experiment with the B-80.  It has an operating weight of 6500 kg, right. That weight includes the wheels (I couln't find how much do they weight in RL). But in the game that's just the weight of the front axle and the chassis. And the game puts the weight of the wheels on top of that 6600 + 1400 = 8000 is how much our B-80 actually weights in-game. So I decided to substract the weight of the wheels and redistribute the weight in the same ratio, which produced 1700 kg front axle and 3500 chassis.  It drives quite well actually, the front wheels don't feel slippery, handles nicely. I even tried it that heavy semitrailer that PL found - the front wheels didn't come off the ground anymore than they did before. And there're no problem with the front wheels sinking.

But at that weight it just can't pull trailers through the mud (right now in 1.6.2, with default media.xml)  Diff is locked, wheels are spinning and it just barely moves. MTZ-82 by pokemone and UMZ-6a have similar weight distribution, although they're somewhat lighter.  Pokemone's MTZ-82 has a 1000 front axle, 3500 chassis and no center of gravity offset. The front wheels sink a little bit when it's PKU-19 loader is installed.
b80_trailer.thumb.png.83cc482211f8da9418d245ede898cbb1.png

Even If this weight is correct, I'm unwilling to keep it, for now at least, in 1.6.2.
What do you guys think?

Edited by Truckwolf
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@Trackrod_STThe middle column is for MTZ-80.
It reads:
Construction weight
Operating weight with ballast
Operating weight max  - isn't this one fully loaded with fuel, oil, driver and so on?
The last one is umm...as shipped from the factory.

So which one should I be using, the construction weight + the weight of the fuel + 75kg driver?  
Capture1.thumb.PNG.2f67383e0f6e54639fd8b58cbb2da9fb.PNG

EDIT: Oh, alright their website in more clear. (LINK)
Масса эксплуатационная, кг 3770

For frick's sake.... I looked at it, disregarded the ballast thing, because...what ballast even?  And I looked at the one in the game with it's 6600 weight and I assumed that's the value I should use.  Why doesn't it just say operating weight...uuuuuughhhhhhhh....
Well....at least it doesn't change the COM since I calculated it at 3770 anyway.

I'll give the decreased weight a try, but...the trailer pulling is only going to get worse.

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I can't calculate COM without those values. 
I found the original manual from 1973 (LINK)
Construction weight is: 3000  (3160 in the 1984 version of the book) (LINK)  (it's the orange book on the third row)
And the wheelbase is: 2370mm   (where the in-game one is 2620 mm)

1 hour ago, Trackrod_ST said:

I tried the B 80 in game, on Plains and it sunk into the garage forecourt. It's simply too heavy.

Is that the default one or my current tweak from the first page?

EDIT: Oh yeeeah, I just tried it with mine. The area close to the garage is super soft, softer than the bog actually. Woow. I should check the Aftermath garage too.
Damn it!
1719909639_b80_aftermath2.thumb.png.9b86c10343da69e3b9edd85475d86231.png

Well....here's the weight decreased and redistributed.
 

Mass="2450" ModelFrame="BoneChassis"
Mass="1200" ModelFrame="BoneAxleFront"

Give it a shot, It takes a lot of effort to get it to sink at that weight - driving back and forth, steering the wheels left and right in place.
But there's one problem with this weight: it is nigh impossible to pull an unloaded traier through mud, let alone a loaded one  (spawn trailer_short_cart and try to pull it across the bog on proving)

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2 hours ago, Truckwolf said:

Mass="2450" ModelFrame="BoneChassis"
Mass="1200" ModelFrame="BoneAxleFront"


But there's one problem with this weight: it is nigh impossible to pull an unloaded traier through mud, let alone a loaded one  (spawn trailer_short_cart and try to pull it across the bog on proving)

I used the default B 80.

Maybe that's why the original builder gave it such a heavy weight. This is representative of the real life 2WD tractor, trying to pull a drawbar trailer through heavy mud, of the type in Spintires.

You've either got to put weight on the rear wheels, water or wheel weights, or use a trailer specially designed for the job as depicted in my picture.

..

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@Trackrod_ST Well, the default one sinks everywhere. I mean, look at Unster's screenshot.  That's what I've been trying to solve during the past days. And I believe that I've reached a nice compromise point - where it doesn't sink in the bog on proving and it can still pull a trailer (albeit slowly in 1.6.2).  Under normal conditions it won't take a nose dive.  But, evidently, it will still sink on super soft areas like the Aftermath and Plains garage areas. But even then I had to drive back and forth and turn the wheels left and right to force it to sink.
This is why I believe that I've reached a very nice balance point.  Realistically it should have "1200" front axle and "2450" chassis. But it just can't pull a trailer at that weight.
I'll leave it at that for now, because we are starting to move away from tweaking and into modding. I mean I won't make any further changes to the xml files.  But I'll keep modding it for myself.  I'll increase the rear wheels from "600" to "850" and start looking for a suitable trailer like the one you've posted.
Question: Could you please show me on a picture where would a semitrailer attach?  If it's not on the lifting arms then where? I can fit in a hitch, if I knew where to put it.

Now on to something else!  I've figured out the grabber! I've already explained that those "-2" degrees can cause problems. And you've said that the lifting arms should go up higher than that, right?  So I examined the constraints and what do I see - the second one also goes down to "10". But it goes up to "-35"!  Why on Earth would somebody give the second constraint "-35" when intending it go up only to "-2"?  If you only want "-2" you put "-2" on both of the constraint...simple as that.
So I firmly believe that this was a mistake. It was always intened for the lifting arms to go up to "-35", but the constraints got reversed!
They're swapped! The "-35" should be on top and "-2" underneath it.
And when you swap them - TA-DAAA!!
b80_liftingarm.thumb.png.4e5fd6427d21b64c41e3fc726f024098.png

Here're the constraints  default and reversed:
grabber_default.thumb.PNG.933ad121d1f001fe4894457f773c2983.PNG
 

Edited by Truckwolf
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Aftermath. Default B 80.

Getting to the camp wasn't too bad, but it carves a groove that the trailer has to go through. I got back as far as the bridge, but fuel is running out.

Regarding the trailer hitch:-

A trailer hitch frame, is carried under the axle body and is either fixed with pins or these can be removed and the frame raised and lowered by the hydraulic top arms with the lower arms removed. Better to see a picture. ( I'll find one). This will keep the pin closer to the axle centre.

aaaa.jpg

Edited by Trackrod_ST
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@Truckwolf

 

Yes that's it.

Here's the B 80.1 version. You can see the PTO just above the hook. The hook comes up through the ring you can see on my trailer.

Look at page 207 in the B 80 manual. 😀

The linkage is a 3 point system, invented by Ferguson and first used on the TEA 20, (I have a 1948 model).

It is primarily used for mounting a plough or cultivation systems.

The triangle you see there, in your picture, is for very heavy equipement and incorporates a vertical ram to assist the linkage ram in lifting the whole machine from the ground, which it can then transport.

..

 

mtz-80-20fc,10665733_5.jpg

Edited by Trackrod_ST
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I do feel this tractor is better without the permanent diff lock.  It allows for much better turning on those sharp asphalt turns on the Hill map.  And you can turn on the diff lock when you need it.

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2 hours ago, Unster said:

I do feel this tractor is better without the permanent diff lock.  It allows for much better turning on those sharp asphalt turns on the Hill map.  And you can turn on the diff lock when you need it.

That’s why the real tractor has also lockable diffs and no permanent difflock. I own also a old tractor, and when i lock the rear diff you barley can turn that thing. Would go nearly straightforward 

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Greetings, gentlemen! 🙂 I've attached several addons to B-80 to test the following:
a). Does putting more weight on the rear wheels effect traction?
b). Does it make pulling trailers through mud easier?
c). Are trailers with less wheels easier to pull through mud?

It's all just observation, but...it's still pretty interesting.

What I did:
1). Attached a rear hitch
2). Added a counterweight (1000kg) + front loader (500kg) = 1500kg.
3). Attached a semitrailer with com offset to the end of the handle.
The semitrailer weights 500kg. The logs weight 6000kg.  
Why so much? Because trailer_short_cart and agricultural_trailer are frigging heavy!
A loaded agricultural trailer weights: 6300 kg.
A loaded trailer_short_cart weights: 7100 kg.

I drove through the bog on the default proving and through the swamp path on Psix's proving and (at least to me) it seems that pulling semitrailers with equal weight, but part of it distributed to the rear of the tractor is much better.

PressureLine did the math, so we know that adding weight will improve traction.  But not that much weight. 7000kg trailers are too heavy for our B-80 even at 6600kg, let alone at it's real weight of 3600kg. The tractor's manual says that it can pull trailers up to 9000kg on dry roads. (12,000 in the 1973 version of the manual) This is just too much for mud, even with a semitrailer setup.
Trackrod said about 4.5 tons applied down close to the rear axle.  It seems to me that for pulling semitrailers through mud the optimal weight is about 3.5 tons.  Anything heavier than that causes the trailer to sink which makes it's even harder to pull.  However even a 6500kg sunken semitrailer is still easier to pull than a 6300kg agricultural trailer.

My verdict based on pure observation:  what PressureLine said "the cart trailers suck for the b-80". And in 1.6.2 with default media.xml - they suck for every truck. If this is realistic and is here to stay then we should starting looking for suitable semitrailers. I'll be keeping this one, I like it!
Does the number of wheels matter, I wondered, because that's another set of wheels to be affected by the very high PushRessistance. Two wheels sink easier than 4, but, as I said, a sunken 6500kg semitrailer was still easier to pull.

What do you guys think? Looks like PressureLine and Trackrod were absolutely right (naturally) 😁
Let me know if you do some tests of your own. And let me know if you find some nice semitrailers in your collection.
I think that for now this will mark the end of my tinkering with b-80 - there's nothing else to do, decreasing it's weight will only be to it's detriment. COM seems fine, even if it's from 80x, tire width is fine even if it's from 9.00", not 7.5", although the in-game model is 9" (based in tire track width). I've left my semitrailer at 3500kg and I'll test it further.
Cheerios!

P.S. Or just set the rear wheels SubstranceFriction to "2.3", this also solves most of it's woes with trailers. But that's a personal choice, that every player can make for himself.

* the semitrailer in my screenshots is from this mod. I've repainted it and swapped it's wheels for smaller ones. (LINK)
b80-2.thumb.png.ed5c1bb1d0c7ac56a01394bb5a35f2ef.pngb80-3.thumb.png.be5049d2e69251c1b5f62ac5e317c662.png

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

b80-1.thumb.png.364912d8d4efc6fb8976e709c598fe39.png

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

And this type of trailer I would consider the best at 3500kg. It's an alternative version of the one PressureLine posted - it's slightly shorter and has a different handle that doesn't get stuck in the mud (most of the time). And the 4 wheels keep it from sinking in the ruts of the tractor. Don't forget to set the trailers wheels to Friction="Highway" for the least amount of sinking. (both this one and PressureLine's come from a T-150 mod -> (LINK) ). Works like a charm!

b-80_semitrailer2.thumb.png.4a530252ce43accb8c412e541db99375.png

Aa-ha! I've figured out why this trailer is so good - it's wheels are set wider apart than the wheels of the tractor. So when the tractor carves ruts through the mud it doesn't sink in them. Check it out from this angle:
b80_trailer_wheels.thumb.png.ff036337132adcf2c69c39981c2080cb.png

 

Edited by Truckwolf
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