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1 hour ago, Truckwolf said:

@oldman777 What's your opinion on 1.6.1's mud and physics? Do you feel that PressureLine's settings are reasonable? I'd love to hear more from people with actual experience (who are also fans of the 2015 versions).

I don't mean to interject, but you can read some of his other recent posts on this forum.  He also said he doesn't want full mud realism.  He had enough of it in real life.

But the problem now is that shallow mud is too slippery, i.e. harder than it probably would be IRL, while deep mud is too easy.  It's the former that most people are complaining about.  So I think even oldman would be fine with realism, if in fact shallow mud was realistic.  For example, going up that slight mud incline in the B-80 in proving ground is pretty hopeless.  Even I don't think real RWD tractors are that impotent.  I tried the same slope in MR with the B-6A, a very similar tractor, and I made that slope quite easily.  It's possible to get stuck in the middle of it if you spin aggressively, but a little back and forth easily gets you going again.  Not so in ST.

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Hello, Rather than posting in each thread individually, here's a global thread to say thank you for reporting the issues you may have found. We acknowledge them and we are busy fixing them right

Good news, fellas! 🙂 I contacted Zane and here is his reply. The bold and comment in italic are mine.    

Another news: Soon the snow will fall in Russia.

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1 hour ago, Truckwolf said:

@oldman777 What's your opinion on 1.6.1's mud and physics? Do you feel that PressureLine's settings are reasonable? I'd love to hear more from people with actual experience (who are also fans of the 2015 versions).

I was completely satisfied with the properties of dirt in previous versions. I think PressureLine has done everything possible regarding the dirt at the moment, but only the developers can fully restore what was in previous versions, if it is possible at all. Regarding the 2015 version, I mean the general color palette. There are many different shades of grass, foliage and everything else. And good menu design, without a fish eye. In new versions of the game, everything is like through sunglasses. One shade of green, just darker and lighter.

I mean version 16.01.15. This version cannot be downloaded via Steam, but I have kept it from that time. You can try it yourself if you wish:

https://sharemods.com/qi7ffhhb4igy/ST.16.01.15.zip.html

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10 hours ago, oldman777 said:

I was completely satisfied with the properties of dirt in previous versions. I think PressureLine has done everything possible regarding the dirt at the moment, but only the developers can fully restore what was in previous versions, if it is possible at all. Regarding the 2015 version, I mean the general color palette. There are many different shades of grass, foliage and everything else. And good menu design, without a fish eye. In new versions of the game, everything is like through sunglasses. One shade of green, just darker and lighter.

I mean version 16.01.15. This version cannot be downloaded via Steam, but I have kept it from that time. You can try it yourself if you wish:

https://sharemods.com/qi7ffhhb4igy/ST.16.01.15.zip.html


this version 16.01.15., the game works without crashing the advanced options of the trucks?

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45 minutes ago, TiaguX84 said:


this version 16.01.15., the game works without crashing the advanced options of the trucks?

This version is a legacy version, it's from many years ago

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@oldman777 Thank you, I too collect old versions, that's another one for the collection then. The colours are rather nice indeed. Though as far as colour goes I guess I am the one with the unpopular opinion, because my favorite colours are the ones in 1.4.0.  I find them easier on the eyes and those rose ash sunsets are so beautiful, I just stop my truck and stare at the horizon.  03.03.16 and 1.6.0 colours are too saturated for me, I play for an hour an my eyes are red. To each his own I suppose.
---

If I may share something about my playstyle:
As a player I insist on playing without difflock and winch and I have to say I find the mud very challenging and interesting.
I watch Alexander Oblivin on youtube and he does for a living what we do in the game. He drives an Ural-5557 in Perm Krai that has neither difflocking, nor a winch. When he gets stuck he unloads some of the logs or even grabs some with the manipulator and positions it to the left,right or forwards of the truck with the logs hanging in it's claws. Then he tries again and again going back and forth, back and forth, untill he eventually succeeds in getting out of the mud or over some muddy slope.  If he can't he puts chains on the wheels. At one point he even used the manipulator to grab a nearby tree and he pulled himself out with it! If nothing works he unloads completely and that is usually enough to let him continue on his way.

I try to mimick him in my playstyle and I find the current mud to be perfectly able to simulate what I see in his videos. As long as the mud isn't too deep. I've never seen Alexander Oblivin drive through anything resembling the frigging muddy craters map makers force us to drive through on a regular basis. The more I think about it the more I can see that Unster's criticisms are valid. I too want Spintires as a simulator to be as realistic as possible, but I don't know what could possibly be done.

@Unster Hello! If the developers were to take steps towards making deep mud more realistic, shouldn't they begin by adding axle collision? Or is that something that can never be done?

And if we want to prevent trucks from sinking in mud too much right now - can't we just increase PushResistance somewhat? I've read your older posts where you explain all the different values in media.xml, but It's seems to me that you may be wrong about what PushResistance does. May I tell you of an experiment I did and you tell me if I am right or wrong.
So I increased PushResistance to "90" and I dropped MaxDeformationPressure to "20e6" - which is basically soup mud. Then I spawned b130 with chained wheels on the Aftermath garage which has become notorious for testing ground pressure. So I spawned it and drove around back and forth and lowered the free cam below the surface so that I can see what's going on. And the truck was lowering the height map very quickly, which is expected at 20e6, but it did not sink! The truck remained on the surface of the mud and it became slippery as ice. I would hit the handbrake it would slide around.
So based on that I believe that PushResistance does determine how deep trucks can sink. Doesn't it?

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PushResistance does exactly what it says on the box, it sets the resistance to 'push' forces (in context that being sinking down into the mud) so increasing it has the effect of making it harder to sink into the mud, not neccesarily how far you'll sink into the mud. [edit]Although those things are related, especially when you set 'extreme' values[/edit]

I think rather than focusing on 'realistic' (which considering the number of 'mud consistency' discussions there have been on this forum over the years appears to be pretty subjective) imo it's better to focus on 'realisticish' with the driving experience being the important part. There would need to be a LOT of work to move ST into true 'simulation' territory (sim-lite/simcade is where I feel ST is at right now: it's realistic(ish), but doesn't try that hard)

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14 hours ago, Truckwolf said:

I dropped MaxDeformationPressure to "20e6"

Did you mean 20e-6? Because I think 20e6 means 20*1000000 which is 20 million, unless I'm wrong.

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No, no, it is a very high number but that is what it is. I'm guessing the default pressure is actually  "100e6" or even higher. Actually at one point you too asked Localhost about b-130 and b-133 burying themselves on the Aftermath garage. That's because he chose a really low value as the default for ST+ "25e6". If you want to prevent the b130's front wheels from breaking through the surface you'll have to go above "70e6" I myself chose "80e6" and I've been playing with that value for a very long time now.  Recently though I revisited the 2015 versions and 03.03.16 and I was suprised how low their MaxDeformationPressure was. 03.03.16 especially is really soft. I was driving the Ural and one of my front wheels broke through the surface - soon enough the truck tilted to 45 degrees and was about to roll over in what seemed like a flat road.

You can read more about MaxDeformationPressure  in ST+'s config file and how a fix for the WheelmassBug essentially became a difficulty setting.
 

Edited by Truckwolf
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20 hours ago, Truckwolf said:

@Unster Hello! If the developers were to take steps towards making deep mud more realistic, shouldn't they begin by adding axle collision? Or is that something that can never be done?

And if we want to prevent trucks from sinking in mud too much right now - can't we just increase PushResistance somewhat? I've read your older posts where you explain all the different values in media.xml, but It's seems to me that you may be wrong about what PushResistance does. May I tell you of an experiment I did and you tell me if I am right or wrong.
So I increased PushResistance to "90" and I dropped MaxDeformationPressure to "20e6" - which is basically soup mud. Then I spawned b130 with chained wheels on the Aftermath garage which has become notorious for testing ground pressure. So I spawned it and drove around back and forth and lowered the free cam below the surface so that I can see what's going on. And the truck was lowering the height map very quickly, which is expected at 20e6, but it did not sink! The truck remained on the surface of the mud and it became slippery as ice. I would hit the handbrake it would slide around.
So based on that I believe that PushResistance does determine how deep trucks can sink. Doesn't it?

Anything can be done, including axle collision, but that's up to the developers.  This game has never had axle collision, so if we want realism we are left with tweaking the media.xml mud values to a point where it looks like the axles are getting stuck in mud.  This was somewhat possible in the previous version (prior to 1.6.0) by changing FullPushDepth.  As I've said previously, it now no longer seems to do anything.  So deep mud is unfixable just by tweaking.

PushResistance also seems to have changed in function.  In older versions, it didn't affect sinking but rather how hard the mud pushed your truck around (too high values would make truck twitch side-to-side).  Now it clearly affects resistance to sinking, but changing it doesn't really solve anything.  If you increase it just a little, you'll find front-heavy trucks sinking at their nose while the rear sticks up, which looks ridiculous.  If you increase it even more, then you'll see some twitching at every wheel.

I'm not familiar with MaxDeformationPressure.  I don't use ST+.  I have tweaks & mods but otherwise I like to keep the core of the game stock.

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25 minutes ago, Unster said:

I don't use ST+.  I have tweaks & mods but otherwise I like to keep the core of the game stock

But ST+ has only quality of life improvements! It has only positives and zero negatives. So you still play with the wheelmassbug? And you've never tried the manipulator with STPControlledConstraints? Good grief, man! That thing is smooth as butter! You can slowly close the claws and you can move them independent from one another.  You can easily grab two medium logs and there's zero risk that the crane will drop them when it's PoweredConstraint turns off because it can't squeeze anymore. Like I said I went back to 2015 for a while, between having to align the trailer cart and the default crane I was pulling out my hair within 5 minutes of gameplay. And the battery powered winch! Oh, the battery powered winch! No more dragging trucks around in the mud hoping that eventually you'll right them somehow.  And the living nightmare when there's only two winch sockets - one on the front bumper and one on the rear bumper.  I don't even want to remember...dark times.
I doubt that I'll be able to change your mind 4 years after ST+'s release, but I just can't even begin to understand how you looked at it and went "Nah, this isn't for me. I like to torture myself." 😀

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39 minutes ago, Truckwolf said:

I doubt that I'll be able to change your mind 4 years after ST+'s release, but I just can't even begin to understand how you looked at it and went "Nah, this isn't for me. I like to torture myself."

Ha ha.  Nah, it's not really torture for me.  I guess I'm skeptical of "hacks" which ST+ is, plus I've read it's no longer supported and it's caused some issues for others before.  And when reporting bugs, having ST+ can complicate things as the behavior may be due to it rather than the game.  If I want properly working things, like strong crane claws, I just play MR.

What is the wheel mass bug?  I know in all these mud games (ST, MR, SR) wheel mass has this weird property of affecting suspension stiffness.  Is that what you're talking about?

I don't doubt there's some good stuff in ST+, but then why isn't it part of the game?  That's really where it should be.

Edited by Unster
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It's not just stronger claws, it's independently smoothly moving claws. Actually the motor value is the same, but STPControlledConstraints don't turn off like PoweredConstraints - you know when you grab the logs and you wait a second and there's that twitch - that's when the poweredconstraint turns off and becomes fixed - and at that moment it has very little power, that why so often the logs just plop out of the claws.  [Citation needed on the technical terms, but empirically true] And you operate them with keys on your keyboard, no need to open the functions menu.....I could go on forever.
 

On 8/19/2020 at 8:36 PM, Unster said:

What is the wheel mass bug?

EDIT:  Removed my explanation. It was the way I understood it way back in 2016, but it turns out I was wrong and this is outdated anyway. If anybody wants to learn more about the wheelmass bug - you should start by reading this thread (LINK), after that head on to page 22 of the Spintires Plus thread.

Edited by Truckwolf
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@TruckwolfInteresting, but I think too much detail for this thread.  Also we don't know how much of these old bugs are still in the game.  Localhost would know.  I don't think this bug is still in the game.  In ST I've always noticed heavier trucks sank more.  In MR, they all sink by about the same amount.  I've never seen a light truck (or one with light tires) sink more.

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2 hours ago, Unster said:

I don't think this bug is still in the game.

You don't, huh?

The first screenshot depicts c255 with light wheels. Game version: clean 1.6.0 with default media.xml

The second screenshot depicts "c255 with light wheels": clean 1.6.0 with PressureLine's media.xml

How to reproduce: Change kraz_front.xml from "Heavy" to "Light". Spawn on default proving.
The way to test for wheelmass bug since the start was to spawn c255 in the bog and click reload again and again. In 1.6.0 you don't even have to do that it's plain obvious. And with PressureLine's settings it even caused a Havok explosion!
 

screenshot 1.png

screenshot 2.png

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5 hours ago, Unster said:

I've never seen a light truck (or one with light tires) sink more.

Here, let me show you. (for completeness sake, just to prove that it's not just suspension)

The first screenshot depicts: c255 with light wheels in the bog. It buried itself in the mud in two seconds.

The second screenshot depicts: c255 with superheavy wheels - it instantly without any effort managed to pull itself out of that predicament.

 

Screenshot 1.png

screenshot 2.png

Edited by Truckwolf
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56 minutes ago, Truckwolf said:

The first screenshot depicts: c255 with light wheels in the bog. It buried itself in the mud in two seconds.

The second screenshot depicts: c255 with superheavy wheels - it instantly without any effort managed to pull itself out of that predicament.

Thanks for the proof.  That tells me that ST is even more broken than I thought.  The solution then is to fix this in the game and not just use ST+.  This kind of flaw has no reason to be in the game, and since the physics are being reworked, now is the perfect time to address this.

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I KNOOOOOOW, RIIIIIGHT! This has been in the game since the start and it has been diagnosed and fixed in ST+ for 4 years now! Localhost even works for Oovee now - he is there, the code is there, what's the frigging hold up?!

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6 minutes ago, Truckwolf said:

I KNOOOOOOW, RIIIIIGHT! This has been in the game since the start and it has been diagnosed and fixed in ST+ for 4 years now! Localhost even works for Oovee now - he is there, the code is there, what's the frigging hold up?!

Ha ha.  It's probably Zane.  Now this doesn't necessarily mean that everything in ST+ should be merged to the game, attempt at quality control is good, but let's hope he speeds up the fixes including merging the good stuff from ST+.  As I recall some stuff out of it has already been merged.

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Oh my god, you're killing me with those comments "not everything should be merged" , "merging only the good stuff". What bad stuff?! You've probably looked once at the config file, saw that you can turn off damage and fuel consumption and were like "Bah! This is some cheaty nonsense!".   ST+ is 100% good stuff. The skidsteering, the constraints for tracked vehicles, I mean have you ever tried ДТ-75 by woodingot? That is the most amazing work of art I've ever seen! Working tracks! Perfectly working tracks. And even branches get stuck in the tracks!
And the alternatedifflockdamage, as a fan of realism haven't you tried it? It's not perfect, but it's a step towards realism.
Currently, besides the quality of life features the more major stuff that remains in ST+ is the wheelmassbug fix and the stuff related to tracked support.  STPControlledConstraints too, which are my favourite thing in the world. Localhost himself said that he is ready to incorporate them in the game, but...

Edited by Truckwolf
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@TruckwolfWell you have to be careful any time you merge source code.  You can't just blindly merge stuff and expect stuff to work.  I remember at least one instance where ST+ was conflicting with an ST update, sometime last year.  And the advice was, don't use ST+.

FYI, I just checked MR and it too has the same wheel mass behavior, i.e. light wheels mean heavy truck and vice versa.  I'm thinking it may not be a bug.  Just the system may be designed to work differently than what we assumed.  It may be that the mass of a truck includes the wheel mass, and for suspension behavior the wheel mass then has to be subtracted, since the suspension doesn't hold the mass of the wheels.  It may be quirky, but don't assume it's a bug.  That would also explain why suspension seemed to get stiffer with heavier wheels.  The truck without wheels was just lighter and the suspension was less compressed.

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Yes, sometimes on game update some ST+ features brake. But Localhost fixes them quickly enough and everything is fine again, they just need to be updated. ST+ does not cause random crashes and instabillity if that's what you are concerned about.   But enough about ST+, if the wheelmassbug fix can't convince you it's worth using, nothing will.
 

10 hours ago, Unster said:

I'm thinking it may not be a bug

Right, it's not a bug, it's a feature! You really should read through the bug thread, here (LINK)
The equation is wrong.
Localhost: “Pavel just forgot to counter this by multiplying suspension strength and damping by [ 1/wheelmass + 1/parent_frame_mass ]"

Edited by Truckwolf
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9 hours ago, Truckwolf said:

Right, it's not a bug, it's a feature!

If it's a bug, then again, why is it not fixed in the game after 4 years?  Surely there must be a reason.  I think you assume too much.  I'm not claiming it's a bug or it's not a bug.  Even if it is, fixing it could break other things.  That's the nature of software.

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