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First time posting, with a question. First off thanks for the fixes everyone. Second, is there not something we can do as paying customers, with proof of these timebombs, can do legally? It is straight crud that I payed for something intentionally rigged to crash. I am considering contacting lawyers on Monday. First off Oovee should fix this, checking code for malicious intent, second this Pav-whoever should pay for intentionally sabotaging this wonderful game, and Steam should step up with both and do something as well.

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Ok, I wrote a fix, just unzip the d3d9.dll and its config xml it in the directory that contains spintires.exe Edit2: new version to handle even more nasty stuff: http://www.mediafire.com/download/4m1

Update for you all   We expect to receive a hotfix for testing later today. We will get it tested and hopefully released once we confirm the problem is fixed   Thanks for the patience and positiv

First of all, many thanks to localhost for what he did here. Some people here may know that I'm a software-developer as well but localhosts skills go a few steps further and without his work and helpi

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That is why you do not have just one person that can fix or create issues, I say fire his ass and hire someone new that won't screw over Oovee when he doesn't get his way. Yeah, it's time to use common sense here. Quit with the seven year old arguements and fix the game.

Wow you do know that if oovee fired pavel. It be end of all updates, pavel made and has all code to the game. oovee is like paypal taking chunk of money,and giving some to pavel

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Wow you do know that if oovee fired pavel. It be end of all updates, pavel made and has all code to the game. oovee is like paypal taking chunk of money,and giving some to pavel

It's not like Pavel is irreplaceable, either. If Pavel actually did his job rather than sabotage his player base we'd probably have most of the features we've been asking for ages for. And if oovee would grow a pair and keep Pavel accountable and get a proper team together to develop spintires rather than getting steered around by the nose from Pavel we could all get back to enjoying the game that we know could be great.

 

At this point I'd say Pavel is the worst thing to happen to spintires.

Edited by freeman
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why does this keep happening I remember same thing from last year this new up date makes my spin tires not work on 3 different pcs and I am sure it will get straightened out over time as they always do this much I know but this is the only game I have played where this keeps happening but oh well guess ill have to get my off roading fix from my jeep till I break it again, as trying to play spintires just more aggravating then any thing at the moment

I guess in "Russia game plays you"

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Recently while I was test driving my hilux, the HUD vanished, seconds later the whole car vanished, and then the game crashed.

 

That's new.

 

EDIT: Looking through this thread has confirmed I'm an idiot and didn't read anything.  :lol:

Edited by Vilespring
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It's not like Pavel is irreplaceable, either. If Pavel actually did his job rather than sabotage his player base we'd probably have most of the features we've been asking for ages for. And if oovee would grow a pair and keep Pavel accountable and get a proper team together to develop spintires rather than getting steered around by the nose from Pavel we could all get back to enjoying the game that we know could be great.

 

That's pretty much always been my take on it. Once the original concept had been fleshed out, any appropriately skilled programmer could have taken over. Instead we've had 18 months of lacklustre updates and constant delays.

 

But y'all decided when this **** all really started at the end of 2014 that Pavel was 'right' and Oovee were 'bad' and in the wrong. So for the past year we've had the situation where Pavel has enjoyed enough popularity that Oovee can't do anything without making the situation worse for themselves, hopefully we can see a reversal of that. Where Pavel having been revealed as a despicable tool can be made to shut up and code (since that is what he gets paid to do) so that Spintires can move forwards, instead of this 1 step forwards 2 steps back garbage we've had for the past year.

Edited by PressureLine
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so is it even remotely possible that the "time bombs" served a purpose other than intentional sabatoge and are malfunctioning?(not a coding guy, honest question not smart-assery) like theft protection or some crap?

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so is it even remotely possible that the "time bombs" served a purpose other than intentional sabatoge and are malfunctioning?(not a coding guy, honest question not smart-assery) like theft protection or some crap?

Just guessing here, but I would imagine that if these timebombs actually served a genuine purpose, such as an anti-piracy measure or some such purpose, then I would imagine an honest developer would keep updating the official executable so that his paying customers never expired and experienced the timebomb. The pirated copies, which have no steam update, would be left to expire.

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Just guessing here, but I would imagine that if these timebombs actually served a genuine purpose, such as an anti-piracy measure or some such purpose, then I would imagine an honest developer would keep updating the official executable so that his paying customers never expired and experienced the timebomb. The pirated copies, which have no steam update, would be left to expire.

yeah that's what I was thinking, because in theory it sounds like an excellent anti-piracy measure. although in practice local broke it way too quickly lol. Seems like pavel would have more to lose than oovee if he sabotaged his own game, doesn't really make sense.
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I had to dust off my account for this post. 

Firstly,  I'm not going to go into which party is right or wrong,  without all the facts it really could go either way,   a lot of people say  "Oh Pavel is being an ass***"  but not being in his situation can you really know what he's been contracted into,  he could be contracted to update the game for years for pennies on each sale, Is that what happened?  maybe not,  but we don't know.  It's possible that the original contract amount could be far less than expected due to less copies than estimated being sold,   it would be like getting a job today that pays $100,000   but all the sudden tomorrow it only pays $17,000,  it would be quite hard to live then wouldn't it,  I'm not trying to say its right what has been done,  But there are cases where it could be the only option. 

But again we don't know the story here,  It could just as easily go the other way around.

But Moving along to the main reason for my post,  i see so many people on here  with the  "Just Fire Pavel" approach,  Well here's the problem.  Spintires is an entirely new tech for the most part,  It was designed from the ground up by Pavel.

Oovee is a publisher,  Primary their role is to bank-roll the game,  Provide marketing and distribution they also hold the copyrights in this case, And while some publishers have in-house developers i don't think Oovee has any significant staff of developers,  Regardless even if they did,  Pavel holds the source code based on what i have read over the years,  And hes not just going to hand it over without a fight (not saying its politically correct,  but it is the fact)

But Lets say they got the source code,  i can tell you as an armature coder,  And I'm sure any other coder would tell you that taking over a project from another developer would be much harder than starting from scratch you'd almost have to go through the code line by line to figure out how it works before you could even think about moving forward,  And a project like this can easily exceed 4 million lines of code

I hate to tell you guys that think kicking Pavel out the door would fix this problem, It wouldn't,  it would likely be the end of the game entirely,  And yes Pavel knows this,  That's why he's playing his joker card with what he's doing.

And while it sucks it's happening to one of my favorite games,  The solutions is not easy to this,  The only way this can end well is for the two parties to come to a amicable agreement

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Yep, in a test release I would understand it, but as mentioned it's very simple to negate it (took Localhost a few hours tops) especially if you are already having to disable the Steam account validation stuff also.

 

One would also assume that a record of these timebomb dates are kept by Pavel, and passed on to Oovee, that way if an official update gets delayed they could pre-emptively make a post "Sorry everyone, on [date] the current version of Spintires will stop working. We hope to have an update availible to fix this before it becomes an issue, but it may not be possible." Although ofc if Pavel used a proper version management system he would be able to release a fix for this issue (and this issue only) without having to finish off whatever else he is doing. Unfortunately this is not the case, probably because it would be far too easy for Oovee to tell how much (or little) work he is actually doing, and it would become harder for him to leak betas to his 'friends' while being able to maintain a facade of innocence.

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Regardless of the hypothetical use of timebombs as a DRM that would have turned horribly wrong, the remote kill switches controlled through the workshop shouldn't be able to affect pirates, since pirates (afaik) can't access the workshop.

 

Today I just found out that seeing (whether installed or not) the certified blue skins for C types (http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=531302645 ) through the built-in browser also enables the kill switch which starts the 300s timer. Too bad my dlls make the game ignore the state of this switch, so the timer doesn't start anyway hehe.

To be accurate, it's not "just seeing" that triggers the kill switch. The game fetches the mod's description text and if it is different from what the game expects -> kill switch activates, timer starts.

 

Again, none of this is a fact, but you can make your own opinion by removing my dll, the certified B-131 and C-4310, seeing if the game crashes after 5+mn , opening the built-in workshop browser (with steam online) then waiting 5+ mn.

 

Anyone getting new weird things with my dll AND the new achievement icons?

I haven't played since I posted dll v2.

Edited by Localhost
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First of all, many thanks to localhost for what he did here. Some people here may know that I'm a software-developer as well but localhosts skills go a few steps further and without his work and helping hand, we wouldn't know what we know as of now. Although I lack the skills to find out what localhost found out, my skills are good enough that I can confirm what localhost says. There is no 100% guarantee for either one possibility or another, but at least all of the things localhost found seem to be really strange.

 

So as a little update what's happening right now. Marijn (our beloved code-monkey) and me are working closely with Oovee at the moment to get more details about the whole story. I won't go into details here since my NDA says I'm not allowed, and even if, at this stage I simply don't want to go into more detail. But I can assure you guys that everyone who can help to solve that is actually working on that problem the best he can.

 

A few things which were posted here and which I want to answer with *moderator hat off*:

 

so is it even remotely possible that the "time bombs" served a purpose other than intentional sabatoge and are malfunctioning?(not a coding guy, honest question not smart-assery) like theft protection or some crap?

Timebombs are what their name is: TimeBOMBS. Bombs usually never serve a purpose other than cause damage. Still, we are not at the point were we have absolut bulletproof evidence that those timebombs were build in with the intention to build timebombs, just that some code behaves like a timebomb. With this in mind, it would be great if, as of now, nobody starts blaming anyone. We are still at investigation-stages and therefor it's "In benefit of the doubt" and it would be awesome if we don't see this conversation to turn into a shitstorm topic. Until now, it's mostly a real good discussion and we would be happy if we all could stay on this level.

 

 

But Moving along to the main reason for my post,  i see so many people on here  with the  "Just Fire Pavel" approach,  Well here's the problem.  Spintires is an entirely new tech for the most part,  It was designed from the ground up by Pavel.

That's not entirely correct. What Pavel created is not an entirely new tech but a totally different approach to certain things (like for example mud-deformation) based upon fairly common technologies.

In an interview which he gave like 2 or 3 years ago he explained his approach and basically it's an awesome idea he had how to do this, but it's not exactly difficult. So in short: His idea how to solve the problem was astounishing, but the technology is neither completely new nor extensivly difficult to understand.

 

But Lets say they got the source code,  i can tell you as an armature coder,  And I'm sure any other coder would tell you that taking over a project from another developer would be much harder than starting from scratch you'd almost have to go through the code line by line to figure out how it works before you could even think about moving forward,  And a project like this can easily exceed 4 million lines of code

As a professionel software developer I wholeheartedly disagree with you here for several reasons:

Although I have no idea how many loc's Spintires consists of, keep in mind that a large part is handled not by custom spintires code but by a fairly old (still good) engine. So all of the physics stuff is basically handled with Havoc, which reduces code-learning by a lot.

Similiar it is with handling input devices, force feedback etc. So the only things which is really something a developer need to get used to, is the graphical stuff because that's where Spintires is heavily different from other games.

Now, let me give you an example from my work: We have a product which consists roughly of 6 to 7 million loc's. If we hire a new developer, it takes around 3-4 weeks until ge can start working and change smaller things although he doesn't know all of the code. It's usually not neccessary to know every byte of the code, if it is, it's bad coding practise. Code should be divided into small modules with clearly defined interfaces. As long as you understand how a module works, you can change it's behaviour without knowing what calls the module. Getting a developer to full speed with full code-knowledge takes around 4-6 months in our case but we have some significantly harder stuff to handle than Spintires. So an experienced game-developer should be able to deliver first patches and bugfixes within a few weeks, game updates with additional gamemodes may take a couple of months. That's it.

And without pun intended: There is a huge difference between someone who codes for a hobby, and someone who does it for a living. I usually read and write code for around 40-60hrs a week. AS a hobby coder, it's usally not more than a third of that. It's like with sports: You can become a real good soccer player playing it as a hobby, but you'll always stay way beyond professionals.

 

I hate to tell you guys that think kicking Pavel out the door would fix this problem, It wouldn't,  it would likely be the end of the game entirely,  And yes Pavel knows this,  That's why he's playing his joker card with what he's doing.

I have to disagree here as well. No software which is already written depends on the original author. It simply doesn't. Each and every similiar skilled programmer can pick up the work. It may take a while, but basically it's utterly wrong that a piece of software will die just because the original coder left.

 

Just wanted two throw in my 2cents as a professionell developer since you said it probably doesn't matter whether people ask other programmers and that they will see it similiar like you do ;)

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As a professionel software developer I wholeheartedly disagree with you here for several reasons:

Although I have no idea how many loc's Spintires consists of, keep in mind that a large part is handled not by custom spintires code but by a fairly old (still good) engine. So all of the physics stuff is basically handled with Havoc, which reduces code-learning by a lot.

Similiar it is with handling input devices, force feedback etc. So the only things which is really something a developer need to get used to, is the graphical stuff because that's where Spintires is heavily different from other games.

Now, let me give you an example from my work: We have a product which consists roughly of 6 to 7 million loc's. If we hire a new developer, it takes around 3-4 weeks until ge can start working and change smaller things although he doesn't know all of the code. It's usually not neccessary to know every byte of the code, if it is, it's bad coding practise. Code should be divided into small modules with clearly defined interfaces. As long as you understand how a module works, you can change it's behaviour without knowing what calls the module. Getting a developer to full speed with full code-knowledge takes around 4-6 months in our case but we have some significantly harder stuff to handle than Spintires. So an experienced game-developer should be able to deliver first patches and bugfixes within a few weeks, game updates with additional gamemodes may take a couple of months. That's it.

And without pun intended: There is a huge difference between someone who codes for a hobby, and someone who does it for a living. I usually read and write code for around 40-60hrs a week. AS a hobby coder, it's usally not more than a third of that. It's like with sports: You can become a real good soccer player playing it as a hobby, but you'll always stay way beyond professionals.

 

I have to disagree here as well. No software which is already written depends on the original author. It simply doesn't. Each and every similiar skilled programmer can pick up the work. It may take a while, but basically it's utterly wrong that a piece of software will die just because the original coder left.

 

Just wanted two throw in my 2cents as a professionell developer since you said it probably doesn't matter whether people ask other programmers and that they will see it similiar like you do ;)

 

Well i didn't say impossible,  I also assumed all physics were hard-coded since it was his design for the deformation i imagined it would all be custom code,  Yes another team of developers could pick up the project,  but its happened to games before and they were ruined by it,  the original vision was lost.

 

But still,  to accomplish proper takeover of the code  as you said many developers would be needed,  Which could cost more than the existing issue,  On top of what Pavel is owed currently,  We are most likely in a money dispute now,  expending more money will only make it worse.

 

Perhaps i was to literal with my post,  i was trying to make it more understandable,   Obviously i know that projects can be worked on as a group,  That's where FOSS community driven projects comes from..

 

But what i meant is it's going to take quite a few developers and extremely good project management to come out the other side, Someone is going to have to understand the basic framework in order to break up tasks and modules,  And I'm not sure Oovee has these people on staff already,  What it comes back to is money,  Using more money to accomplish this than you would have used in the original issue would only make things worse from a business prospective.

 

We can't with 100% certainty say that it would cost more money because we don't know the existing contract,  But it is well within the realm of possibilities, As there is already a money dispute

 

So,  I think that getting rid of Pavel would hurt the game more than most people think,  No its not impossible,  But i think it would post a whole new challenge in itself,  which very well could make the game not worth proceeding.

 

I dunno,  That's just how i see the situation.

Edited by ArchNemesis
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Well i didn't say impossible, I also assumed all physics were hard-coded since it was his design for the deformation i imagined it would all be custom code, Yes another team of developers could pick up the project, but its happened to games before and they were ruined by it, the original vision was lost.

 

But still, to accomplish proper takeover of the code as you said many developers would be needed, Which could cost more than the existing issue, On top of what Pavel is owed currently, We are most likely in a money dispute now, expending more money will only make it worse.

 

Perhaps i was to literal with my post, i was trying to make it more understandable, Obviously i know that projects can be worked on as a group, That's where FOSS community driven projects comes from..

 

But what i meant is it's going to take quite a few developers and extremely good project management to come out the other side, Someone is going to have to understand the basic framework in order to break up tasks and modules, And I'm not sure Oovee has these people on staff already, What it comes back to is money, Using more money to accomplish this than you would have used in the original issue would only make things worse from a business prospective.

 

We can't with 100% certainty say that it would cost more money because we don't know the existing contract, But it is well within the realm of possibilities, As there is already a money dispute

 

So, I think that getting rid of Pavel would hurt the game more than most people think, No its not impossible, But i think it would post a whole new challenge in itself, which very well could make the game not worth proceeding.

 

I dunno, That's just how i see the situation.

 

Ignore spintires for a second and think of minecraft. That game was developed by one guy and has grown into a very successful product. Heck, its now owned by a multibillion dollar company. The original developer no longer works on it and hasn't for a long time (because he sold it). Different circumstances for sure but goes to show that even the original brainchild isn't necessary to further a game along and be successful.

 

Nobody is irreplaceable.

 

Man, think of how different a game spintires could be if it was as open as minecraft is (which really isn't that open but certainly more open than spintires).

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